Note: Highlights and (notes) were added by Raffy, 16 January 2006. Other highlights were by the system (IRC). jmarsden (chair) and deshlab are new puppies who have been very active in this meeting.

(14:03:08) Lobster: First thing to discuss is "any other business" - oh no that is at the end - who has the agenda?
(14:03:40) jmarsden: Lobster: http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Foundation006 is the agenda, right?

(14:03:52) Anacari: itnt it barry first then other points of interest ?
(14:04:15) Lobster: yes - it changes as we go along if we have a secretarary
(14:04:42) ***J_Rey has multiple personalities

(14:04:50) J_Rey is now known as Barry
(14:05:00) Barry: ;-)
(14:05:05) Anacari: >.>
(14:05:07) Barry is now known as J_Rey

(14:05:23) Anacari: wheres black bot when ya need him >.>
(14:05:27) J_Rey: the good thing is that he registered his nick
(14:05:28) Lobster: We do not know who is gonna turn up - so we start and update the wiki s people can catch up - also a transcript of the meeting is kept - is that right?

(14:05:46) Anacari: J_Rey: he uses BarryK here >.>
(14:05:47) IanMul: Ok
(14:05:52) MU_331: ok

(14:06:02) J_Rey: that's right
(14:06:08) J_Rey: same as the forums
(14:06:24) Lobster: Any developer issues?

(14:06:48) MU_331: that dotpupmaker.sh is cool:)
(14:07:05) newbie [Anonymous@54C5DEB0.8D29EF27.8B1A9609.IP] entered the room.
(14:07:05) jmarsden: Packaging, package repository, minor bugs in usr_devx.sfs... and thanks MU :-)

(14:07:07) Ted_Dog [Ted_Dog@368C715F.153E345B.7547FA2E.IP] entered the room.
(14:07:16) IanMul: Hi Hi
(14:07:23) J_Rey: welcome, welcome

(14:07:40) dewdropGMT-6: Hi ted_Dog
(14:07:40) mode (+o Ted_Dog) by J_Rey
(14:07:43) mode (+v newbie) by J_Rey
(14:07:51) Ted_Dog: howdy

(14:07:53) Lobster: woof woof
(14:07:57) MU_331: well i plan to write a script for easier uploads at dotpups.de
(14:08:07) IanMul: Where is the dotpupmaker.sh

(14:08:09) Lobster: good news MU
(14:08:18) MU_331: but i plan that since some weeks already :/
(14:08:20) jmarsden: From what I can see Puppy School is 1st on the agenda... whose item is that?

(14:08:30) Lobster: I know - still good news
(14:08:48) jmarsden: IanMul: http://www.murga.org/~puppy/viewtopic.php?t=5066
(14:08:52) Lobster: eh mine

(14:09:07) MU_331: atm it works ok with ftp-accounts for people who often contribute
(14:09:13) jmarsden: OK, Go Lobster... fill us in on the details...
(14:09:22) Lobster: read what raffy has been up to with Via

(14:09:22) J_Rey: Raffy is the one with the Puppy school project
(14:09:34) MU_331: yes, nice project
(14:09:48) IanMul: Yeah

(14:10:06) MU_331: we remove 50 % from puppy and sell it for 299 pounds ;)
(Joke about the way someone (mis)introduced Puppy to a school in the UK.)
(14:10:16) Lobster: OK well part of the reason for calling this Puppy school is to offer more structured (by penguin standards) support
(14:10:19) Trobin [root@24F2A9B.AE937AB8.B54A458A.IP] entered the room.

(14:10:34) IanMul: Hi
(14:10:47) J_Rey: wb Trobin
(14:10:49) Trobin: Hello again

(14:10:50) mode (+v Trobin) by J_Rey
(14:11:29) Lobster: that means more winks and more tutorials and more status to formal or structured possibilities
(14:11:58) Lobster: Hi Trobin :)
(14:12:14) Trobin: Hi Lobster

(14:12:34) jmarsden: Lobster: Do you have a specific proposal for how to achieve that? Or questions for the meeting concerning it?
(14:12:50) Lobster: In other words how can we offer a course or structured intro - or do we stick with go here - try this (which also works0?
(14:13:18) MU_331: i must find out how to make small wink-tuts how rhino does them by cuttingframes

(14:13:51) J_Rey: FYI Wink is what Rhino has been using to create his Flash tutorials
(14:13:56) MU_331: wecould need a tut for that
(14:14:11) Lobster: I would say 1 we create a FAQS or manual

(14:14:22) MU_331: yes, but by default it creates very huge videos.
(14:14:30) Lobster: 2. We create a set of Puppy learning tasks
(14:14:43) MU_331: rhino found a way to remove most irrelevant parts

(14:14:53) IanMul: A manual with screenshots might work
(14:14:58) MU_331: yes
(14:15:21) dewdropGMT-6: Page 1 Task 1 kind of thing?

(14:15:30) IanMul: and would not be too big
(14:15:32) Lobster: rhino is working on a learn winks tut and doing two mtpaint ones - plus some others I have suggested
(14:15:38) Lobster: Theya re great

(14:16:00) IanMul: Yeah dewdrop
(14:16:15) Lobster: Agree with Ian
(14:16:33) MU_331: great

(14:17:06) Lobster: The easisest place for manual with screenshots is still the wiki - with eventual move to official docs
(14:17:33) MU_331: yep
(14:17:47) deshlab: how much do you think such a manual should cover? are we talking about fitting all of puppy in it (office, networking, multimedia etc) or more of an intro to linux with focus on puppy's specialties?

(14:18:04) J_Rey: do you mean http://puppylinux.org/docs/ ?
(14:18:04) Lobster: OK well page name should be TutorialFaQsManual - what?
(14:18:36) jmarsden: Do we have someone in the Puppy community willing and able to create these docs? Preferably someone who has created tutorials before? Is Rhino able to take the lead with this (manual + screenshots tutorial) task? Likewise, is there an experience FAQ maintainer willing to step forward and take on that role for Puppy?

(14:18:39) dewdropGMT-6: Tutorial to Get Puppy up and running
(14:18:41) Lobster: desh -intro - getting up to speed
(14:18:56) jmarsden: Lobster: Might be good to start small: GettingStarted or similar?

(14:19:12) Lobster: Yes J
(14:19:17) Ted_Dog: how to mount, set up ethernet, google, newbe stuff
(14:20:00) IanMul: The docs project could provide a starting point, just use what is needed

(14:20:03) dewdropGMT-6: Have one for each kind of setup.... 1. from CD 1 from Installed to HD, etc
(14:20:07) Lobster: There is no need for one person - we have a page on the wiki - we add to it as and when
(14:20:18) Lobster: then it moves to official

(14:20:21) J_Rey: existing quick start guide: http://puppylinux.org/user/readarticle.php?article_id=4
(14:21:24) dewdropGMT-6: That's it......J_Rey....looks like it's already been started...at least
(14:21:26) Ted_Dog: could we cover the basics on puppy boot the index.html like knoppix?

(14:21:27) IanMul: Yeah, there is lots of info on the wiki, just needs collating.
(14:22:08) Lobster: J_Rey
(14:22:16) Lobster: that is a good page

(14:22:18) J_Rey: Ted_Dog: boot the index page?
(14:22:34) MU_331: puppy alread starts lobsters welcome-wizard
(14:22:57) Ted_Dog: I don't see those

(14:23:03) Lobster: ah yes that could be a way of simplifying too
(14:23:05) deshlab left the room (quit: Ping timeout).
(14:23:09) MU_331: found it very helpfull
(14:23:26) MU_331: was that removed?

(14:23:59) MU_331: not shure, but might be
(14:24:03) ***J_Rey is confused
(14:24:17) desh-lab [desh@234C3EBE.10FA7371.D914F5E5.IP] entered the room.

(14:24:24) newbie left the room (quit: Client exited).
(14:24:30) mode (+o desh-lab) by J_Rey
(14:24:31) desh-lab: my puppy just died :(
(14:24:34) dewdropGMT-6: Could the page noted above by J_Rey be put on the Forum as a sticky on the new users page so that people visiting just the Forum would see how really easy downloading/installing/using Puppy can be?

(14:24:50) IanMul: I have to go have breakfast, back soon.
(14:25:00) MU_331: bye ian
(14:25:06) J_Rey: wb desh-lab; sorry to hear that

(14:25:16) MU_331: poor desh :(
(14:25:18) Ted_Dog: Supper in an hour
(14:26:00) desh-lab: well better it than me, no big problem, and no need to discuss that now (seems to be connected to firefox though)

(14:26:35) J_Rey: well we have a *lot* of Puppy Linux resources and sites but they all aren't integrated as well as they could/should
(14:26:57) Ted_Dog: Agreed J_RAY:
(14:27:09) jmarsden: Agreed 100%, when I first arrived it was hard trying to figure out which site was most likley to tell me the info I was looking for... still is hard sometimes :-)

(14:27:15) desh-lab: true, it would be good if someone would try to connect them
(14:27:26) desh-lab: that can't be done wiki style, I guess
(14:27:33) Lobster: http://puppylinux.org/wikka/ManualBeginners

(14:27:49) Lobster: This page is now created as a stub
(14:28:05) Lobster: A link to J-Reys page is the first entry
(14:28:55) Lobster: Integration is the job of the Foundation

(14:29:11) ***jmarsden just gave that page a title and subtitle :-)
(14:29:13) desh-lab: what about using a variation of the welcome.pup as the basis for all other intro work - so people don't have to search for a beginners guide in the (pup)web but have a button to press
(14:29:31) J_Rey: also I added this FAQ answer (http://puppylinux.org/user/faq.php?cat_id=2) to the FAQ so users can find all the PL support options

(14:29:53) MU_331: yes desh, that needs tobe integrated
(14:30:05) desh-lab: I liked the wizard style apps in puppy a lot that explain each and everything they do - you can learn a lot without even connecting to the net and acessing the wiki/forum
(14:30:22) Lobster: The welcome pup is not offered as part of Puppy - that would have to be done - in other words standard info

(14:30:27) dewdropGMT-6: I'm gonna have to run away for a couple of hours.....adios for now
(14:30:38) dewdropGMT-6 left the room.
(14:31:27) J_Rey: see also http://puppylinux.org/wikka/AbsoluteBeginners

(14:31:36) Ted_Dog: request default page http://www.puppylinux.com have less 'bulk' since it will be the first load with puppy it should load fast for dailup users
(14:32:44) jmarsden: OK, sounds like we have plenty of good ideas and a Wiki Page to collect them and start creating a tutorial. Should we move on to the next item on the agenda? Or are there other "Puppy School" things to discuss first? Lobster?

(14:32:47) bamatuxfan: Hello all, kudo's to the developer/s. The welcome pup idea sounds good. I've been using sine 1.0.1 but went full time with office and home w/1.0.6. My 2 cents...:)
(14:33:58) MU_331: yes, next poit
(14:34:03) MU_331: point

(14:34:20) Ted_Dog: Ok, next point
(14:34:25) Lobster: good point Ted_dog - that is up to Barry - send him a PM suggestion or put on forum
(14:34:25) desh-lab: ok

(14:34:57) Lobster: next point?
(14:35:18) jmarsden: FRom agenda: developing IRC into more of a schooling /helping paw channel . . . seting up Gaim automatically for #puppylinux
(14:35:22) Ted_Dog: what is the next piont?

(14:35:24) jmarsden: Anything there to discuss?
(14:35:36) Lobster: is anyone updating the Puppy foundation page?
(14:36:07) MU_331: IRC I can't say anything, as I don't use it

(14:36:35) ***jmarsden is logging and can upload the chat log to whoever will be secretary and update the Wiki after the meeting, if that's helpful.
(14:37:03) Lobster: I tried to find a way of scripting or altering GAIM so it by default goes to puppylinux - that is the idea
(14:37:13) J_Rey: Actually I noticed that Barry is using http://www.puppylinux.com/ as the default home page in 1.0.7 and in his forum posts (not http:/pupweb.org/puppy/ anymore)

(14:37:43) jmarsden: Lobster: Just set up the files under ~/.gaimrc/ so it is configured out of the box...?
(14:37:46) Ted_Dog: And in pre-pre-pre-alpha
(14:37:50) Lobster: thanksJmarsden - that would be great

(14:38:16) jmarsden: Lobster: Look in /root/.gain/accounts.xml for the GAIM setup stuff.
(14:38:33) desh-lab: If the irc channel were changed to a busier help/school, would all communication there be logged, so the info can be integrated into wiki/faq later?
(14:38:56) Lobster: good point desh

(14:38:57) jmarsden: desh-lab: auto-logging needs an IRC bot... Anacari can answer that sort of Q?
(14:39:00) desh-lab: everything communicated on the forum is available info for all and thus more useful - just not as quick
(14:40:11) IanMul: Burp! I'm back

(14:40:13) jmarsden: Daily web pages logging what was said in a #puppy-schol channel should be very doable, in my opinion... is one of the chanops willing to work on that?
(14:40:18) MU_331: i don't like chats. I also think they are not usefull for beginners
(14:40:32) Anacari: yea autologging would need a loggin bot

(14:40:39) Lobster: Jmarsden - if you provide the auto script for Gaim Barry might include it - I will have another look if you add that to the notes of the meeting but my scripting is limited
(14:40:40) IanMul: Yeah MU
(14:40:50) desh-lab: but sometimes you need a quick answer, especially if you are a frustrated newbie stating with puppy/linux

(14:41:13) MU_331: because in a forum people take more time to be precise, and you easier can refer to existing messages
(14:41:18) desh-lab: it can be obvious errors like case-sensivity that drive you nuts, just because you are not aware of it
(14:41:27) jmarsden: Lobster: OK... was hoping someone else would take on that little project, not me... will see what I can come up with

(14:42:35) jmarsden: I think offering both IRC for folks who want interactive help, and an online tutorial for those who want to read official docs, is a good overall approach. FOrums in the middle, for those who want slower interaction.
(14:42:48) desh-lab: but I would go for concentrating on the forum as well, getting a 24-7 irc staff for faq work is not too realistic anyway, is it?
(14:42:57) Lobster: when I set up kanotix there GAIM went straight to a channel - I asked a question - got a response and this helped immensly - it is another possibility

(14:43:11) desh-lab: yes, irc should stay available in any case
(14:43:11) IanMul: Not really deah
(14:43:21) IanMul: desh I meant

(14:43:32) MU_331: but in the forum you usually don't have to wait long, too
(14:43:41) desh-lab: thanks to you, yes ;-)
(14:43:54) J_Rey: yes more than one support option is needed (doc pages, forum, live chat, etc.)

(14:44:25) jmarsden: OK. Next major agenda item: Official Crustacean publicity report
(14:44:37) Anacari: o-0
(14:44:49) MU_331: but i don't want you to drop that idea, it is just nothing for me :)

(14:44:59) Lobster: Also you will notice that the links when you first open Mozilla are not very comprehensive
(14:45:20) Lobster: In fact there is only one - going to goosee.com
(14:45:29) jmarsden: Right, adding some useful Puppy-related default bookmarks would be good.

(14:45:32) desh-lab:so we agree, puppy software should come with better preconfiguration - more bookmarks, default channels

(14:45:48) IanMul: ok
(14:45:49) jmarsden: Is there someone here willing to create a set of those and send them to Barry for possible inclusion?

(14:45:58) Lobster: agree with desh
(14:46:01) J_Rey: no more goosee.com >.>
(14:46:01) Ted_Dog: good point lobster: that is perfect to attach helpful pointers

(14:46:06) MU_331: yes, absolutely
(14:46:13) Anacari: ;) i can send him this entire conversation :P
(14:46:19) IanMul: ok

(14:46:38) jmarsden: Anacari: That's not going to do it. We need someone to create the set fo links and send him the file to include, I suggest...?
(14:46:45) ***Anacari logs irc....
(14:46:45) Lobster: good news anacari - that would be ideal - or the cut down version

(14:47:00) desh-lab: who's editing a cut down version?
(14:47:07) J_Rey: like bookmarks.html?
(14:47:12) jmarsden: J_Rey: Yes.

(14:47:19) Lobster: yes j-rey
(14:47:25) IanMul: Yeah
(14:47:26) J_Rey: that'd make it easier good

(14:47:44) Lobster: in fact someonone was working on this but it has not happened - Dex
(14:47:54) desh-lab: i think the default start page should also be chosen well - many people use a browser as the first thing in an os nowadays
(14:48:07) Anacari: hmm

(14:48:25) Anacari: where is dex
(14:48:43) Ted_Dog: That is what I think as well default page is a key
(14:48:44) Lobster: Yes I do - it should be the official docs, wiki or the pupweb page . . .

(14:48:56) J_Rey: It is currently puppylinux.com
(14:49:14) J_Rey: we have two home pages now
(14:49:29) desh-lab: maybe it should even be a local file, like the help file - so you start puppy, you start mozilla and you are introduced, connected or not

(14:49:38) Ted_Dog: And is Pizza Camping??
(14:49:42) J_Rey: the Barry-maintained puppylinux.com and the Foundation maintained puppylinux.org
(14:49:46) Lobster: then both should be part of the html bookmarks

(14:50:03) jmarsden: Lobster: (let us) follow up with Dex, so the improved-default-bookmarks project doesn't get forgotten?
(14:50:10) bamatuxfan: agree with desh on local file
(14:50:12) Lobster: Pizza is busy on his empty crust

(14:50:24) IanMul: I like desh's idea of an intro page
(14:50:37) Lobster: OK Jmar
(14:51:07) Lobster: OK publicity report . . .

(14:51:08) jmarsden: OK. Time for... Official Crustacean publicity report ?
(14:51:08) bamatuxfan: network is not always up on inital install a local page could help a newbi
(14:51:25) Ted_Dog: info page on local would be best

(14:51:27) Lobster: We need a wiki news editor
(14:51:40) Ted_Dog: We got you lobster
(14:52:01) Lobster: more evangelism AND we need to think about going to Linux shows (local)

(14:52:57) desh-lab: is there a hotkey in dillo to increase font size? i can't read the agenda!
(14:53:16) IanMul: Linux shows are few and far between here and the ones they do have are too far for me to go to
(14:53:18) jmarsden: Lobster: Being specific about what it takes (hours/week) and what skills you need to do the editor job might be helpful to any candidates??

(14:53:27) J_Rey: the bookmarks also need to link to file:///usr/share/doc/index.html
(14:53:50) J_Rey: desh-lab: do you mean the "dillo" via the Help menu item?
(14:54:28) Lobster: Well we do not need A EDITOR :) we need people to report news - that is the load is shared rather than unloaded on one poor smuck

(14:54:38) desh-lab: j_rey, have restarted it, it's ok
(14:54:44) J_Rey: +1 Lobster
(14:55:19) desh-lab: so, Lobster you want just more editors that do not call themselves editors :-)?

(14:55:24) Lobster: It is the same with me being wiki master - the wiki is for all to do
(14:55:43) Lobster: same with offiial docs - more input
(14:55:45) J_Rey: I contribute to the general news page on the wiki as well as other pages throughout the Puppy Web in a irregular manner

(14:56:05) Lobster: thanks j-rey -all help is great
(14:56:16) jmarsden: Lobster: OK. I'm starting to edit Wiki pageson occasion, but had left news alone because it seemed to be the responsibility of an "editor"... thanks for clarifying!
(14:56:51) Lobster: Jmar - things work on the basis of merit - whoever does ends up doing

(14:57:27) jmarsden: Lobster: Understood, but on teh news page tehre was a specific request for a nwe editor... I read that as meaning that page was edited by one person, the designated editor... I must have misunderstood.
(14:57:41) Lobster: however sometimes thinfs work out in unexpected ways
(14:57:55) IanMul: Kenny quit

(14:58:20) Ted_Dog: who is Kenny
(14:58:23) Ted_Dog: ?
(14:58:35) jmarsden: klhrevolutionist ??

(14:58:36) IanMul: Ex editor
(14:58:56) IanMul: Yeah
(14:59:01) Lobster: designated editor is just a standard way of doing things - you can say I am the editor or J-rey or you are - no difference - contribution is the key

(14:59:05) Ted_Dog: Oh, I heared he was posioned
(14:59:14) J_Rey: yeah I talked to Kenny (klhrevolutionist) here about it and he may be back after a little break, but not so prominently. hard to say exactly tho
(14:59:24) star_gazer [star_gazer@C6EAC3B6.57A0F5EB.4ECF7349.IP] entered the room.

(14:59:28) IanMul: Hi
(14:59:35) J_Rey: Welcome star_gazer
(14:59:38) mode (+v star_gazer) by J_Rey
(14:59:40) star_gazer: hi and ty

(14:59:53) Ted_Dog: Yeah its hard to work for free and get ripped on as klh was
(15:00:15) jmarsden: Lobster: OK.. anything more as part of "Official Crustacean publicity report" ?
(15:00:32) Lobster: Being THE editor is lonely - being a editor (reading and contributing) is more fun

(15:00:48) Lobster: next point
(15:00:49) jmarsden: OK. What is the sub-item " Puppy Archivist report?" about?
(15:01:10) star_gazer left the room (star_gazer).

(15:01:10) IanMul: What haven't we covered
(15:01:26) Lobster: not here - we have a historian - we need a page or report - forget his name
(15:01:37) jmarsden: OK. Then on to "New Puppies" ?

(15:02:03) Trobin: I guess I'm the historian, or at least trying to be.
(15:02:04) Lobster: well a new one soon - barebone aka empty crust
(15:02:23) Lobster: wait - back to Trbin . . .

(15:02:26) Lobster: report?
(15:02:33) Ted_Dog: I am working on devildog v2
(15:02:49) Lobster: one mo Ted

(15:03:19) Trobin: Not much yet, i'm trying to get an understanding of the process, and still trying to identify the important steps in Puppy's evolution.
(15:03:48) Lobster: How is it going Trobin? Do you intend a wiki page - need help - we have a wii page rith?
(15:03:58) jmarsden: Trobin: OK. Do you have a "PuppyHistory" Wiki page or similar in place already?

(15:04:01) Lobster: right
(15:04:20) Trobin: Also, as an arbituary cut off date, I want to concentrate more on the 0.x.x and the 1.0.x series. Leave the 2.x.x series for later.
(15:04:36) Lobster: OK

(15:05:08) IanMul: Barry's site should supply most info on Puppy evolution.
(15:05:23) Lobster: Are you happy displaying what you have so far and have others help (they may or may not)
(15:05:27) Trobin: I have abosolutely no idea of how a wiki page works. I do have a blog though. www.puppyhist.blogspot.com

(15:05:33) Trobin: I think.
(15:05:59) Ted_Dog left the room (quit: Client exited).
(15:06:15) jmarsden: Trobin: Are you willing to learn to edit a Wiki page? Might be easier if your work was there rather than on a separate site?
(15:06:20) desh-lab: are you working together with barry on writing the history? or are you trying to manage it without him?

(15:06:21) IanMul: Wiki has instructions somewhere, Lobster?
(15:06:37) Anacari: a wiki page woks like a noraml html page it just has its own markup langauge
(15:06:47) Trobin: Barry's page does supply most of the important stuff, but I need to figure out the important steps. Not just changes in applications or bug fixes.

(15:06:57) Lobster: wiki is just test - there is a how to sticky on the forum
(15:07:09) Lobster: test -text
(15:07:19) Trobin: I have no problem with people viewing my blog or offering suggestions.
(Corrected link is http://www.puppyhist.blogspot.com/ )

(15:07:27) J_Rey: http://puppylinux.org/wikka/FormattingRules
(15:07:52) Lobster: thanks J_rey
(15:08:38) IanMul: Its easy to use, Lobster and I worked it out to start with.

(15:08:47) Lobster: anythig more about history?
(15:08:50) Trobin: So long as they don't mind picking through and around any side trips I make in an effort to understand what I'm doing.
(15:09:01) IanMul: Ok

(15:09:14) Ted_Dog [Ted_Dog@368C715F.153E345B.7547FA2E.IP] entered the room.
(15:09:19) Lobster: No probs Trobin -
(15:09:29) jmarsden: OK... on to "New Puppies" . Sub items are : Hacao and Grafpup, Supporting Pizzapup and Meanpup, EmptyCrust and Pizzasgood report .

(15:09:31) Trobin: I haven't contacted Barry yet, but want to do so before the thing is finished.
(15:09:50) J_Rey: Trobin you would also want to see the history pages on our old wiki (www.goosee.com/puppy/wikka/) to see a little more of the history for our wiki pages (when we moved to puppylinux.org/wikka the history was lost)
(15:10:06) J_Rey: also see http://puppylinux.org/wikka/CategoryNews

(15:10:24) J_Rey: that would be a key page also
(15:10:32) IanMul: Anyone seen Hacao or Grafpup. I haven't had time
(15:10:42) Lobster: Hey Ted- tell us about devil dog

(15:10:48) IanMul: The O/Ss I mean
(15:11:07) TheBabbs [matt@284629B5.AE85DF9F.E3D9712B.IP] entered the room.
(15:11:11) IanMul: Hi

(15:11:25) Ted_Dog: DVD based version of pre-pre-alpha 2 with multisession
(15:11:26) cherriepuppy [cherriepup@9C24A1A2.60E2775F.119AA8FE.IP] entered the room.
(15:11:27) TheBabbs: Hello everyone. Sorry I'm late.

(15:11:27) J_Rey: welcome
(15:11:30) Lobster: Grafpup is excellent - really highly recommended - uses Opera and has inkscap and is just nice to use - new one soon
(15:11:30) MU_331: I did not install them myself, but used unleashed packages from grafpup in puppy

(15:11:34) IanMul: Hi
(15:11:44) mode (+v cherriepuppy) by J_Rey
(15:11:48) mode (+oo Ted_Dog TheBabbs) by J_Rey
(15:11:55) Lobster: Hi Babbs ;)

(15:12:20) Ted_Dog: Yeah grafpup is great version 1.0.1 is still avail. on www.puptrix.org
(15:12:22) TheBabbs: Hi Ed
(15:12:43) MU_331: If I would not know how to tune Puppy, I'd use grafpup instead

(15:12:59) jmarsden: Other than noting the existence of all the variant Puppy distributions, do we have any specific issues/questions about them to discuss?
(15:13:17) MU_331: no
(15:13:30) Lobster: next point

(15:13:39) desh-lab: financing?
(15:13:46) jmarsden: OK... "Costs incurred by the Foundation"
(15:13:57) jmarsden: $91 for new server

(15:14:13) Lobster: ah - well Raffy is trying to get money out of a new project . . .
(15:14:19) Lobster: where is raffy?
(15:14:19) IanMul: I'm kicking in 50 for that this month

(15:14:33) dvw86 [dvw86@4A8E1779.B3B57D5E.798B3109.IP] entered the room.
(15:14:34) IanMul: Server that is
(15:14:40) IanMul: Hi

(15:14:45) dvw86: Hi
(15:14:50) MU_331: http://www.murga.org/~puppy/viewtopic.php?t=5241&highlight=
(15:14:52) Lobster: nice Ian - thanks - nay news on the account?

(15:14:54) Ted_Dog: 50 Servers can I use one
(15:15:00) MU_331: raffy searches us
(15:16:09) J_Rey: welcome dvw86

(15:16:16) dvw86: Thanks
(15:16:33) IanMul: We can become incorporated, that is the best I can come up with. As for bank account, there are too many tax probs if I set up an account in my name so best to keep sending to Barry.
(15:16:48) mode (+o dvw86) by J_Rey
(15:17:15) Ted_Dog: Welcome dvw, Babbs; Babbs what is the website you have the past versions on?

(15:17:32) J_Rey: www.puppyfiles.us
(15:17:36) Lobster: Is it possible to have a Foundation account at all?
(15:17:41) desh-lab: is there an official "donate to puppy" link on puppylinux.com?

(15:17:47) desh-lab: like paypal to barry?
(15:17:51) J_Rey: yeah
(15:18:01) TheBabbs: Thanks J

(15:18:05) J_Rey: i meant to desh-lab
(15:18:21) desh-lab: not on the front page though - or do I miss it?
(15:18:24) jmarsden: Is "the foundation" already registered as a "non-profit" organization? Or the equivalent in whatever country it will register in?

(15:18:27) J_Rey: http://puppylinux.com/download/downpage.htm#Purchase
(15:18:41) IanMul: We cannot use the word Foundation in an account here unless we have a registered foundation
(15:19:23) jmarsden: Right... is it worth discussion the status of that registration? ANy progress? Who is taking the lead on that? Raffy?

(15:19:50) J_Rey: Raffy is the one who wanted to start an non-profit actually, yes
(15:19:59) IanMul: To set up a foundation in this country is almost as easy as flying to the sun
(15:20:14) desh-lab: (ah, thanks j_rey - front page button might be better.. but you can find it rather easily so that is ok)

(15:20:29) Ted_Dog: Same here, but past the sun
(15:20:29) jmarsden: OK. I've done it in the USA before... not in the Philippines, though I've lived there, too...
(15:20:39) Lobster: we do not need to be a foundation Ian - we just used that name - we a a non profit - so we could be Puppy Linux .org and nothing more . . . not sure what we need to be but $20 000 to register as a foundation is out at present

(15:20:40) J_Rey: He's in the Phillipines and is waiting on others to start one (in Australia or the U.S. seems best)
(15:20:40) Trobin: Just a correction www.puppyhist.com is where the blog is, and I am willing to try and learn how to use a wiki page.
(15:21:00) Trobin: www.puppyhist.blogspaot.com

(15:21:14) IanMul: U.S might be easier
(15:21:22) Trobin: www.puppyhist.blogspot.com
(15:21:45) Ted_Dog: I heard its better to start it in Canada do to the free trade agreements lack of US oversight

(15:21:50) Lobster: thanks Trobin :)
(15:22:21) jmarsden: We can register wherever we have people willing to handle the admin and set up a bank account. Who is offering to do that, is the real question here, I think?
(15:22:22) IanMul: Anyone in Canada

(15:22:24) desh-lab: lobster, maybe the name foundation could be dropped and exchanged for "support staff", isn't that rather what the work is about?
(15:22:24) J_Rey: see http://www.frappr.com/puppykennels for a visual idea of where most of us are located

(15:23:09) desh-lab: foundation does sound like business, even if it was intended just as a name
(15:23:15) J_Rey: jmarsden: that's true
(15:23:34) Lobster: yes desh - but we need an account - name can be something else?

(15:23:41) TheBabbs: I think its best to use the word foundation if we can get the paperwork filed...
(15:24:05) jmarsden: TheBabbs: Probably not if it costs $20000 to do so!
(15:24:12) desh-lab: but if just using the word causes the extra paperwork..

(15:24:18) J_Rey: an (registered) non-profit organization would be more attractive for large donations (tax breaks and all)
(15:24:50) jmarsden: J_Rey: Yes, a registered non-profit is a reasonable middle-ground between nothing (as now) and a Foundation, in my opinion.
(15:24:52) IanMul: I have to go for a while, back when I can

(15:24:53) TheBabbs: USD$20k? Wow! I didn't realize that.
(15:24:54) Lobster: what other names - setups are possible with non-profits
(15:25:19) J_Rey: IanMul: o/

(15:25:19) jmarsden: Lobster: Varies a bit by country. I can help, but that's a detailed discussion once we know where we will do it.
(15:25:20) Lobster: vye ian
(15:26:32) bamatuxfan: In us 501c (non-profit org) fairly easy/cheap to do.

(15:27:01) jmarsden: Right. Still some paperwork each year, but it's manageable.
(15:27:07) Lobster: Well the one set up rule is to have money already allocated to where it is to be spent - so we never (for now) have capital
(15:27:24) Ted_Dog: non-profit or not for profit?

(15:27:42) J_Rey: I was wondering how we would actually get together in person for annual meetings or if that's needed and who would have enough time to handle all the paperwork, donations, etc.
(15:28:04) jmarsden: J_Rey: If the articles of incoropration specify telephone meetings are OK, then they are OK...
(15:28:23) jmarsden: The admin person is the key -- any volunteers?? :-)

(15:28:30) J_Rey: oh good to hear that
(15:28:57) ***Anacari disapates... (BBL)
(15:29:39) J_Rey: one would have to have a serious commitment to this and enough free time as well

(15:30:31) jmarsden: More a long term committment than many hours/month of work, J_Rey. OK... sounds like we need to advertize the need for an admin person before we can move on with organizational registration.
(15:30:58) Lobster: Well Ian set up a paypal account for the foundation but a bank account was also required and this was they key
(15:31:11) J_Rey: also what about if it grows pretty large...

(15:31:37) Lobster: if it grows it changes - first steps first
(15:31:37) jmarsden: J_Rey: If it grows *that* large, you can afford to pay forpart-time bookkeeping help.
(15:32:10) J_Rey: that's true :-)

(15:32:18) TheBabbs: I wouldn't mind having the problem of growing too large. :D
(15:32:20) Ted_Dog: he he he at the present rate we should max out at 500USD in 2008
(15:32:25) ***jmarsden has been treasurer of a small non-profit before. But is not willing to be "the" person to set one up for Pupy, at this stage.

(15:33:23) Lobster: Ian is treasurer - but setting up an account - agree to advertise and discuss on forum
(15:33:47) jmarsden: OK. More immediate stuff: "payment to John Murga for forum hosting costs"
(15:33:59) J_Rey: I'd like to be a help to Puppy in what way is needed but I'm not certain about if this would be the best for me to do. Although I could learn as I go, its a good bit of responsibility....

(15:34:02) TheBabbs: I too, was a treasurer for a small non-profit before, but I am not available to do that here.
(15:34:04) Lobster: Not here and he has wavered this
(15:34:17) J_Rey: So maybe/maybe not

(15:34:24) TheBabbs: The bank required us to have a tax identification number to open an account.
(15:34:53) jmarsden: OK. "gift sending to Barry" is next.
(15:34:57) J_Rey: yeah paperwork

(15:35:18) Ted_Dog: You can request one (TIN)
(15:35:51) J_Rey: that means non-monetary gifts yes, but what about him having to report that on his taxes
(15:35:56) Lobster: adreess is given on the wiki page any gifts are up to discretion - could be anthing nice I guess

(15:36:09) desh-lab: but please do not send living dogs
(15:36:19) Lobster: ;)
(15:36:28) ***jmarsden suggests not sending dead dogs either

(15:36:49) Lobster: next point?
(15:37:00) desh-lab: packages?
(15:37:00) jmarsden: Barry's financial statement

(15:37:24) desh-lab: he did not update it for the last year yet, did he?
(15:37:43) J_Rey: His accounting report for 2005-2006: 5 stuffed animals; 3 dog statutes; and misc. dog items
(15:37:46) J_Rey: ;-)

(15:37:47) Lobster: again Barrys stement is linked - next package managment Jmardsden?
(15:37:52) jmarsden: Sure.
(15:38:01) desh-lab: that's my topic

(15:38:09) Lobster: OK?
(15:38:21) desh-lab: i started (or rather finished) cataloguing the dotpup forum
(15:38:50) desh-lab: (have we finished the financial statement discussion?)

(15:38:50) MU_331: ah? do you have a link=
(15:38:50) Lobster: where is that forum?
(15:38:50) Ted_Dog: Yea

(15:38:53) desh-lab: http://www.murga.org/~puppy/viewtopic.php?t=49
(15:39:04) desh-lab: lobster, the additional software forum
(15:39:36) Ted_Dog: The version 2 puppy will break many dotpups

(15:39:39) J_Rey: temporary location of course
(15:40:08) MU_331: did notknow that, great!
(15:40:14) desh-lab: I plan to replace Flash's index with it in the next days

(15:40:22) jmarsden: Can we get the catalogue (a) somewhere more visible (a Wiki page?) and (b) available in a structure form that package mgmt software can use?
(15:40:22) desh-lab: it should be easier to keep up to date then the wiki
(15:40:54) jmarsden: A forum post is hard for software like /usr/sbin/pupget to parse

(15:41:23) desh-lab: true, but it is a temporary solution - in the long run I hope for a repository
(15:41:26) desh-lab: MU?
(15:41:33) J_Rey: extract the generated HTML source and repost to a wiki page I guess

(15:41:34) MU_331: yes?
(15:41:36) TheBabbs: Did I hear "repository"
(15:42:01) desh-lab: how far is dotpups.de from becoming a repository?

(15:42:08) MU_331: yes, could be integrated to the downloader
(15:42:22) MU_331: 1month maybe
(15:42:23) TheBabbs: I can set up a ftp location for the dotpups and pupgets

(15:42:44) MAX1 left the room (quit: Ping timeout).
(15:42:47) jmarsden: Cool. Yes, please :-)
(15:42:56) Ted_Dog: I can mirror
(15:43:03) desh-lab: I think when a repository launches the wiki/downloader combo will stop being, right?

(15:43:17) desh-lab: instead we would have the downloader connect to the repository/mirror
(15:43:22) TheBabbs: I think it would be best to have a couple of repositories, Europe/USA/etc...
(15:43:27) desh-lab: agreed

(15:43:34) Ted_Dog: Agreed
(15:43:44) MU_331: not shure... you could use wiki and repository
(15:43:47) TheBabbs: My server is in Pheonix, AZ

(15:43:55) Ted_Dog: Mine to
(15:44:06) MU_331: mine in germany :)
(15:44:24) J_Rey: we'll need to change things for 2.0 so we should propose a new DotPup spec and repository and description location

(15:44:35) J_Rey: revamp it
(15:44:35) jmarsden: We should designate one as the master, others rsync it nightly or whatever so they stay up to date. RIght?
(15:44:37) Ted_Dog: Yes

(15:44:51) desh-lab: yes, some dotpup standards would be great - naming convention for one thing
(15:45:10) desh-lab: also rules about included readme and sources link?
(15:45:32) jmarsden: GuestToo seems to value flexibility more than standards, so I backed off from that whole idea -- see the forums...

(15:45:49) jmarsden: Wudl a move towards pupget format packages be beneficial for the longer term anyway?
(15:46:01) jmarsden: s/Wudl/Would/
(15:46:17) desh-lab: we would need some people who convert useful dotpups to pupgets with barry's ok

(15:46:40) MU_331: i already thought of trying .dpp
(15:46:42) jmarsden: RIght. Plenty of repackaging will ne needed for Puppy 2.0 anyway, so now isa good time to get this agreed.
(15:46:49) desh-lab: maybe that could start with the transition to 2.0

(15:46:49) Ted_Dog: How about a format change. like gobolinux doesit
(15:46:53) MU_331: DotPupPackage
(15:47:07) MU_331: a more restricted dotpup

(15:47:10) TheBabbs: G2 shouldn't mind simple standards like naming convention and readme files.
(15:47:27) desh-lab: many of the old dotpups should be redone anyway, since they are outdated and did not include newer ideas like registering with pupget
(15:47:33) MU_331: so you could use that for a downloader, but keep the old flexible .pup

(15:47:50) J_Rey: a community decision of course but Puppy Linux needs to know how to handle the files
(15:48:02) jmarsden: I'm not convinced
(15:48:13) jmarsden: a pupgetmaker.sh is expected soon, BTW... :-)

(15:48:14) J_Rey: if changes are made
(15:48:23) MU_331: yes,barry certainlywould integrate that. But first we need a working solution
(15:48:51) desh-lab: i thought it was a rule that pupget=checked by barry, responsibility and so on?

(15:49:05) jmarsden: desh-lab: That's for Unleashed packages.
(15:49:12) Ted_Dog: goboLinux each program files are in its own directory, uninstall is rm -fr dir
(15:49:14) desh-lab: oh, ok

(15:49:26) dvw86: I don't think tht G2 ever wanted .pups to register with pupget
(15:49:36) Anacari: ted-dog gobo linux plays tricks to acive that
(15:49:58) TheBabbs: Oh, I didn't know that (dvw)...

(15:50:04) desh-lab: but for uninstallation that is the easiest thing, doesn't require to keep the dotpup
(15:50:11) dvw86: he's mentined it a few times
(15:50:12) jmarsden: dvw86: I get that feeling too. Yet dpupmaker.sh does register them... I'm switching to pupget rather than risking antagonizing GuestToo any further.

(15:50:31) Ted_Dog: Yes but not any more than puppy I would not use their booting/kernel methods
(15:51:06) jmarsden: desh-lab: If you register a package, you don't need to keep it around to uninstal it, the package database knows ow to uninstall t.
(15:51:11) Anacari: ted_dog the hinde the true FS behinda a windows like mask

(15:51:20) Anacari: they hide
(15:51:32) Ted_Dog: That is in their kernel
(15:51:33) ***Anacari troges of to typing school.........

(15:51:36) desh-lab: jmarsden, that's what I just wrote, is it?
(15:51:53) jmarsden: desh-lab: OK, I misread/misunderstood.
(15:51:59) desh-lab: n

(15:52:00) desh-lab: p
(15:52:08) jmarsden: I agree that registering with a package database of some sort is very useful.
(15:52:32) MU_331: dotpups createdwith dotpup-wizard are halfway unleashed packages, as they register to pupget

(15:52:45) MU_331: same with jmarsdens ones
(15:53:18) MU_331: but theystill are dotpups, so you can click them in rox
(15:53:38) dvw86: I kind of like the idea of a self contained applicaion. Just delete it to uninstall. Rox-Apps are that way. It's not always possible though.

(15:53:51) jmarsden: I'd rather create pupget format packages and then some can end up in Unleashed if they are good enough / worthy / whatever.
(15:54:03) MU_331: dww but .so must go to /usr/lib
(15:54:08) jmarsden: dvw86: Yes. Try packaging binutils or gcc that way :-)

(15:54:31) MU_331: you would have to rewrite several sources for such a rule
(15:54:43) Lobster: From my perspective setting up and using are the priorities - I liked MU's reader (but it lacked many dotpups from the forum) so I went back to the wiki
(15:55:02) desh-lab: and the wiki lacked many dotpups from the forum too

(15:55:07) dvw86: So maybe we should use the putget for whats needed, but dot pups for ones that can be self contained?
(15:55:09) Ted_Dog: Yes that is the rub, Gobo has its own 'make' files
(15:55:38) MU_331: no dww, as dotpups explicitly allow scripting

(15:55:54) MU_331: that is the pure opposite of your idea
(15:56:25) MU_331: example is opera-downloader
(15:56:29) dvw86: all of my dotpups could be uninstalled just by deleteing what wa installed

(15:57:08) MU_331: opera-dl is just a installer. if you deletethat you still have opera
(15:57:34) Lobster: The reason we started using .pups is because they were available and we could
(15:57:59) jmarsden: OK. We've found a primary FTP site to act as repository (ibiblio). Re-working an enhanced /usr/sbin/pupget to look at several repositories and use them is a probable project here (after pupgetmaker.sh is out). If others want to keep creating and using dotpups that is their choice. My suggestion would be that all "significant" Puppy packaging for 2.0 or later be done using pupget format packages... is that reasonable?

(15:58:00) dvw86: Correct, for that use pupget. But for "stand-alone" apps use .pup
(15:58:31) desh-lab: I think the .pup system is to be supported because it's one of the attractive parts of puppy for new users
(15:58:39) Lobster: agree with jmarden

(15:58:45) desh-lab: dotpup = easy installation (and mostly easy uninstall)
(15:59:16) TheBabbs: jmarsden, which site is the primary FTP site? ibiblio?
(15:59:22) jmarsden: desh-lab: I can write a .pup that would be a nightmare to uninstall....!

(15:59:29) desh-lab: i believe that
(15:59:29) jmarsden: TheBabbs: No, the one you just offered to create !
(15:59:32) Ted_Dog: So can I

(15:59:32) MU_331: i dont agree
(15:59:46) Lobster: MU?
(15:59:50) MU_331: because then you can't click them in rox

(15:59:51) TheBabbs: Oh! I wasn't sure...
(16:00:09) MU_331: so they might get a ew extension.
(16:00:17) TheBabbs: I'll work it out on my end and keep everyone posted...

(16:00:24) MU_331: if you click them, pupget is run with them
(16:00:29) J_Rey: TheBabbs: ibiblio is Barry's FTP site, yes
(16:00:52) MU_331: the it would be ok

(16:00:52) jmarsden: MU_331: Sure, a new extension would heklp with that. Or a more complex rox script that checks for a keyword file inside a .tar.gz and if found, treast the tarball as a pupget package?
(16:01:07) J_Rey: ibiblio is at its storage/upload limit, FYI
(16:01:09) MU_331: yes, or like this, j.

(16:01:14) desh-lab: so we could go for pupgets that install via click too?
(16:01:24) jmarsden: desh-lab: Yes, indeed.
(16:01:24) MU_331: desh, yes.

(16:01:31) desh-lab: that would be good
(16:01:45) TheBabbs: I'm about 6.5GB away from my storage limit... There should be enough room. ;)
(16:01:50) J_Rey: yeah two sites/file repositories

(16:02:17) Ted_Dog: I've got 240G avail
(16:02:17) jmarsden: ibibio is primary for the Os, TheBabbs's one is primary for add-on packages.
(16:02:52) MU_331: so conclusion:

(16:02:53) dvw86: MU: what about G2's Java installer? That is a good example of a .pup that installs something much more complex.
(16:03:21) MU_331: 1. set up mirrored repositories
(16:03:23) Anacari: dosnt it just dl suns installer and start that ?

(16:03:24) J_Rey: yes but Barry's Unleashed/PupGet packages are at ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/puppylinux/pupget_packages-1 that's why I mentioned it
(16:03:42) Lobster: Conclusion seems to be more thought and discussion and possibly .pup2?
(16:03:52) Anacari: .pget

(16:03:54) J_Rey: we are talking about user contributed packages though (currently DotPups)
(16:03:58) MU_331: 2. create a modified unleashed format with new extension for that
(16:04:20) jmarsden: J_Rey: I'd think we could mirror the Unleashed packages as part of the package repo at TheBabbs / Ted_Dog's sites... only a few hundred MBs.

(16:04:32) MU_331: right?
(16:04:37) J_Rey: hundred?!?
(16:04:56) J_Rey: well yes but I though it was more than that

(16:05:12) TheBabbs: I can do that...
(16:05:22) jmarsden: MU_331: Agreed, unless it cam be proven that we don't need a new extension for click-to-run pupget packages, which I somewhat suspect is very doable.
(16:05:36) dvw86: .pups are meant to be small and simple. I'm not sure if they should be part of pupget

(16:05:51) Trobin: Good bye all.
(16:05:56) desh-lab: bye
(16:05:57) MU_331: ok jm

(16:06:00) jmarsden: Pupget packages can also be small and simple. Have you tried making a few?
(16:06:01) J_Rey: bye Trobin
(16:06:07) Trobin left the room.
(16:06:15) Ted_Dog: I think we should develop a click and run, bye Trobin

(16:06:27) Anacari: o-0
(16:06:49) jmarsden: Who are the Rox scripting experts in our community (for the click and run stuff)?
(16:06:50) Ted_Dog: I found it hard to develop dotpups

(16:07:02) desh-lab: I think uniting the two package systems would be an important step for puppy
(16:07:12) desh-lab: but I think G2 won't be happy about that
(16:07:32) Anacari: o-0

(16:07:37) desh-lab: click-to-install pupgets and an improved pupget-downloader would be the step then
(16:08:00) Ted_Dog: I would prefer a click to install over any other method
(16:08:24) desh-lab: agreeing with Ted_Dog

(16:08:30) Ted_Dog: As a user as a developer ..ahhhhh
(16:08:31) J_Rey: Major decisions we should put to a vote in a forum topic (e.g. Barry, G2, rarsa, and others aren't here)
(16:08:34) MU_331: yes, a .pget would allow both

(16:08:55) J_Rey: continue on though, please
(16:08:56) Lobster: agree j-Rey
(16:08:56) dvw86: I kind of like the .pget idea.

(16:09:06) desh-lab: agreed to, j_rey
(16:09:18) Lobster: next point
(16:09:31) desh-lab: but a decision should be taken before we introduce a third puppy package format

(16:09:35) Ted_Dog: shorten to 3 letter for our windows hosts
(16:09:35) J_Rey: Lobster is lost? ;-)
(16:09:37) Anacari: id prefer a *single* mrthod of install extra software... not two or more....

(16:09:40) dvw86: but keep .pget seperate from .pup
(16:09:42) Anacari: method
(16:10:01) Anacari: the more methods the more confusion

(16:10:11) J_Rey: not .pp2 ;-)
(16:10:13) Ted_Dog: I agree with Anacri (click to install)
(16:10:44) Ted_Dog: cti

(16:10:51) TheBabbs: cti
(16:10:55) J_Rey: couldn't we have the .pup files include their version number
(16:10:56) MU_331: no, we should keep both.

(16:10:58) Lobster: agree click to insta;;
(16:11:01) jmarsden: Anacari: Right. We now have two (add-on installers). Getting back to one, by adding the primary benefit of dotpups over pupgets for users (click to install) seems like a good direction.
(16:11:31) dvw86: The one problem with .pups registering with pupget is that you have to include the code in every .pup

(16:11:52) Anacari: O-o
(16:12:05) jmarsden: dvw86: Yes, two lines of code in dotpup.sh, which must exist anyway... let's not get into that discussion now though.
(16:12:26) Ted_Dog: can it be boiler-plated? would it be large

(16:12:31) MU_331: ok, next point. what is it?
(16:12:37) desh-lab: so we agree to make a forum topic?
(16:12:39) jmarsden: Incredible experiments

(16:12:49) desh-lab: and have people vote
(16:12:53) J_Rey: (cont.) like when Puppy runs it, look to see what version of the .pup format it is and assume if nothing mentioned then its the original format
(16:13:35) Anacari: so a few . files in hte root of the tar

(16:13:39) Lobster: gmes and KDE - any reports ideas?
(16:13:57) J_Rey: the question now is who will start the topic so we don't have three new ones 9.9
(16:13:58) jmarsden: J_Rey: I have no plans to invent dotpup version 2. I have plans to enable Rox to talk to a library of installer functions so it can add "click-to-install" to pupget format packages.

(16:14:22) J_Rey: oh ok I missed that then
(16:14:42) MU_331: KDE seems to work ok with 107
(16:15:04) MU_331: so it can be takenas a base for KDE 3.5

(16:15:10) Lobster: KDE is fast and fine in 1.0.7 agreed MU
(16:15:36) Ted_Dog: Good point are those in squash form?
(16:15:43) MU_331: Version 4 will come somewhen in Fall 2006, so we should not wait for that

(16:15:56) MU_331: yes ted dog
(16:16:08) Lobster: is there a KDE package 9standalone - oe click type installer dotpup 2 thingee . . .;)
(16:16:39) MU_331: KDE is too big for a dotpup

(16:16:56) MU_331: just makes sense as usr_more.sfs
(16:17:10) Lobster: OK is there a .sfs? Just KDE?
(16:17:16) MU_331: yes?

(16:17:26) Ted_Dog: What about more use of squash than complex dotpups, we have already made the call
(16:17:30) Lobster: yes there is Ok ;)
(16:17:33) MU_331: see bombayrockers Forum-HowTo

(16:18:08) Lobster: how big is that KDE?
(16:18:20) jmarsden: Ted_Dog: There are only so many loop devices on a given machine... lots of .sfs files and you reach that limit.
(16:18:22) MU_331: Puppy just can handle a limited number of usr_xxx.sfs

(16:18:29) Ted_Dog: Good luck I got lost in all the many posts.
(16:18:53) jmarsden: I hope that creating packages as .sfs is more of a stopgap measure than a long term approach?
(16:19:30) Lobster: what is the alternative?

(16:19:33) dvw86: .pup = stand alone small apps, .pget = register with pupget and create menu entries in JWM and KDE (good for large files)
(16:19:46) MU_331: http://noforum.de/dotpups/KDE-3.4.1a/
(16:20:06) Ted_Dog: I think it would be better long term to move to *.sfs adding loopbacks are not difficult

(16:20:13) J_Rey: FYI for the non-developers squashfs in Puppy loads the .sfs file (which is a filesystem in a file like pup001) and merges it with the existing fs
(16:20:37) jmarsden: Ted_Dog: So we'd end up with kernels that can handle say 1000 /sfs loopback mounts??? Sounds really messy to me...?
(16:20:51) Anacari: O-o

(16:20:53) Anacari: o-0
(16:21:09) jmarsden: Have you tried adding many .sfs files on one system, Ted_Dog ? How many did you get before it broke?
(16:21:10) Ted_Dog: You wont see what you do not use :)

(16:21:19) Ted_Dog: 255
(16:21:57) J_Rey: is it possible to move the .sfs file contents to an existing pupfile (e.g. pup001) instead of adding it as a loopback fs
(16:22:02) MU_331: games... would benice, a gamepuppy

(16:22:22) J_Rey: move/merge
(16:22:29) MU_331: yes J_Rey, simply mount and copy over
(16:22:38) jmarsden: J_Rey: yes, if the pup001 is mounted where the .sfs is, it's trivial.

(16:22:53) Ted_Dog: But you lose space *sfs is compressed
(16:23:18) MU_331: yes, I would not recommend that
(16:23:42) J_Rey: hmm...

(16:24:12) MU_331: the initial idea was to allow to use BIG addons without wasting pup001
(16:24:51) Ted_Dog: That is the way I see it MU
(16:24:58) J_Rey: well, couldn't Barry change the pup001 to be compressed also or is that a problem

(16:25:06) MU_331: whiledotpups were intended forsmall programs only
(16:25:54) Ted_Dog: pup001 would still be the same external size
(16:26:24) J_Rey: ok that's true, the pup file is limited to whatever size its in i.e. 256MB and the mega puppy .sfs is past that

(16:26:37) MU_331: yep
(16:26:59) MU_331: this also makes updates easy
(16:27:13) Ted_Dog: and removal

(16:27:18) MU_331: remove usr_kde34.sfs , add usr_kde35.sfs
(16:27:27) Ted_Dog: Yep
(16:27:33) Anacari: O_o

(16:27:34) jmarsden: Every other distribution I can think of has one officially endorsed package format, not three... I know how we got here, but I urge simplification if at all possible in this area!
(16:27:35) MU_331: no junk left in pup001
(16:28:02) jmarsden: MU_331: Only works if you have not changed some config file for 3,4 which now needs upgrading to 3.5 ...

(16:28:24) MU_331: Other Distros are build for Harddisk-install, thats the difference
(16:28:30) Ted_Dog: I think we should go with sfs over all
(16:28:46) dvw86: Well we could rewrite .pup to check and see what kind of package it is and then act accordingly.

(16:29:08) MU_331: yes, jm, that was simplified
(16:29:25) dvw86: But all installers could be initiated with a .pup
(16:29:48) J_Rey: well, yes let's remember that Puppy Linux is currently primarily a LiveCD distro

(16:29:53) MU_331: no. A pup cannot install usr_kde.sfs on a XP-Harddrive
(16:30:09) Anacari: -.-
(16:30:18) dvw86: ah yes the NTFS problem

(16:30:36) jmarsden: I think we're getting off track for the meeting?
(16:30:38) MU_331: you could only write a pup, that installs it on a few systems with a specifics configuration
(16:31:01) MU_331: ok, next point :)

(16:31:05) Ted_Dog: In version 2 making *.sfs would be most fexable it installs to the top most
(16:31:12) jmarsden: Spreading the load
(16:31:23) jmarsden: Whose item is this?

(16:31:43) J_Rey: Foundation meeting? or developer's meeting? ;-)
(16:31:49) Ted_Dog: Sorry
(16:31:57) Anacari: id say devs

(16:32:20) J_Rey: this channel is always here...
(16:32:42) J_Rey: I'm here a lot but not much of a developer
(16:32:45) Anacari: and they always assume the use of a live cd, so my hdd installs can basicaly go fsck them selves .....

(16:33:00) dvw86: lol
(16:33:08) Ted_Dog: heeee heeee
(16:33:16) jmarsden: SPREADING THE LOAD -- whose topic?

(16:33:17) Dry-ice: is there a diffrence between a foundation and a developer meeting ?
(16:33:18) MU_331: spread - in a technical term?
(16:33:41) MU_331: We had that already - repository, mirrors?

(16:34:07) Ted_Dog: or editor
(16:34:13) jmarsden: (a) At the moment we have a pyramid structure? (b) Do we need to spread the load more? (c) Organisation - eh what organisation . . .
(16:34:19) Lobster: OK Bye from me - good luck with rest of meeting - look forward to reading up on it :)

(16:34:21) jmarsden: Anyone knowwho posted these and what they really mean?
(16:34:26) Lobster left the room.
(16:34:34) MU_331: bye lob :)
(16:34:44) MU_331: no idea

(16:34:51) Anacari: heh i like c
(16:35:31) jmarsden: OK, let's try (e) Puppy Singer (Puppy 1.0.8)? Will it have ALSA? Do developers OTHER than Barry need to create 1.0.9? OR will 2 still be runnable in a way familiar to the Puppy 1 series?
(16:35:35) J_Rey: http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Foundation006/history

(16:36:04) desh-lab: pyramid structure means 1 guy at the top (barry) I think
(16:36:14) desh-lab: so it's related to the next point
(16:36:15) MU_331: well alsa - how big is it? there already

(16:36:31) MU_331: several people asked for integration
(16:36:38) J_Rey: yeah Barry decides what is on the CD images
(16:36:57) waabimiigwan [Stephen@F1EC6BD9.22FDFC7E.558B887E.IP] entered the room.

(16:37:03) mode (+v waabimiigwan) by J_Rey
(16:37:16) Ted_Dog: I did not see any clue of ALSA in pre=pre=alpha puppy2
(16:37:20) J_Rey: welcome waabimiigwan
(16:37:25) waabimiigwan: ty

(16:37:25) MU_331: maybe setup is not easy enough yet. no wizard, right?
(16:37:41) Anacari: alsaconf
(16:37:45) Ted_Dog: no libs

(16:38:06) MU_331: is it grafical, Anacari?
(16:38:40) MU_331: or console?
(16:38:50) Dry-ice: ALSA is very dead

(16:38:58) Anacari: does it have to be ? its a straigt forward text wizard >.>
(16:39:06) MU_331: Barry waited with xorg until he had a grafical setup
(16:39:23) Dry-ice: arts is heard towards ALSA

(16:39:28) J_Rey: is OSS better?
(16:39:37) Anacari: ALSA dead ? how when every recent distro has it or uses it >.>
(16:39:41) Ted_Dog: no OSS is dead (see notes to kerel 2.6 series)

(16:39:42) Anacari: J_Rey: no
(16:39:56) Dry-ice: I think OSS died 10 years ago :)
(16:39:57) J_Rey: yeah my point exactly

(16:40:08) J_Rey: isn't ALSA OSS v.2?
(16:40:24) Dry-ice: J_Rey: AFAIK
(16:40:27) jmarsden: ALSA is the current commonly used approach to sound in most Linux distributions today. If Dry-ice knows of a replacement for it... speak up?

(16:40:33) Ted_Dog: no ALSA supports v2 backword compat
(16:40:59) J_Rey: huh? I meant the successor to OSS
(16:41:06) Ted_Dog: Yes

(16:41:08) Anacari: alsa is at 1.0.10
(16:41:09) J_Rey: just something I read somewher
(16:41:10) MU_331: well thats up to Barry I think

(16:41:58) Dry-ice: holy.. I can't bring up a google page
(16:42:13) Dry-ice: brb
(16:42:13) Ted_Dog: ALSA is not that diffult to put in kernel but it my brake some code

(16:43:10) jmarsden: Up to Barry for 2.0, then. We should ask him what his requirements might be before he is willing to put it in, perhaps?
(16:43:39) Ted_Dog: Don't know version 2 is a large bit off already
(16:43:47) waabimiigwan: whats this 2.0 ?

(16:44:25) Ted_Dog: pre-pre-alpha version 2.0 on developer news page
(16:44:29) Dryice [c@1D3F88F9.1FF723DC.A5966161.IP] entered the room.
(16:44:37) MU_331: puppy2, currently pre-alpha-status

(16:44:52) Ted_Dog: pre-pre-alpha
(16:44:56) MU_331: far away
(16:45:07) Ted_Dog: way far away

(16:45:12) Dry-ice left the room (quit: Ping timeout).
(16:45:13) jmarsden: waabimiigwan: http://www.pupweb.org/puppy/news.htm
(16:45:47) J_Rey: or http://puppylinux.com/news.htm ;-)

(16:45:50) MU_331: next point?
(16:45:53) dvw86 left the room (quit: Client exited).
(16:45:53) jmarsden: Is anyone willing to say anything about the idea of a 1.0.9 ?
(16:46:13) MU_331: I will not create it ;)

(16:46:45) TheBabbs: My first question about .9 is will there be one? I think Barry doesn't intend on doing it... .8 for bug fixes, then 2. for the next release...
(16:46:51) J_Rey: a bugfix release or new features continuing beyond Barry's development (while he works on 2.x)?
(16:47:23) jmarsden: TheBabbs: That's why the item reads in part "Do developers OTHER than Barry need to create 1.0.9? OR will 2 still be runnable in a way familiar to the Puppy 1 series?" Didn't I post that bit earlier?

(16:47:39) MU_331: as long as people use it,there will be servicepacks I think
(16:47:42) Ted_Dog: up to Barry, I do not expect it, however, version 2 should be about two months after 1.08, with lots of alpha/beta/
(16:48:06) TheBabbs: My bad... :-P

(16:48:17) jmarsden: np
(16:48:24) Dryice: jmarsden: what does puppy use for it's sound system, arts ?
(16:48:33) MU_331: oss

(16:48:46) jmarsden: arts over OSS.
(16:49:07) jmarsden: Moving on: Recruiting new volunteers/enthusiasts (I18N/translation, graphic designers for icons/wallpaper/puppy themes, documentation, etc.)
(16:49:09) Dryice: I think the ALSA would work better

(16:49:37) jmarsden: Dryice: provide hard evidence to Barry and he'll listen.
(16:49:40) J_Rey: OSS
(16:49:42) MU_331: Translation is a big problem, and important

(16:50:21) MU_331: I promote puppy in german boards, but typicalreaction: "english? oh no, sorry"
(16:50:44) MU_331: and I am too lazy to translate
(16:50:45) jmarsden: There is always an issue with multi-language provision and space-constraints...

(16:51:05) MU_331: also because if a package is updated, I hadtostart fromnew
(16:51:12) J_Rey: yeah size is important to Barry for Puppy
(16:51:18) TheBabbs: When I was last in Germany, most of the youth knew English almost as well as I do... (Well, Queen's English)

(16:51:51) Ted_Dog: I learned English in Germany
(16:51:53) MU_331: But on a computer most germans prefer their native language
(16:51:57) jmarsden: TheBabbs: But that doesn't mean they will use a distro that igno